Dale Fincher: What exactly is this "Living with Questions"?
ph1sh
· 1 year ago
I loved living with questions but hated case for creation
dale fincher
· 1 year ago
I'm glad you loved the book! Keep spreading the word for others who need to know about it! :)
Gem
· 1 year ago
I know that its late to submit questions, but I remembered your post and my children- raised in a Christian home- raised a whopper of a question which has me rather stumped: Timmy's (he's 8) verse for our devotional was about "the fear of the Lord" and we were discussing "What does that mean?" and he said "It means that God is going to punish you if you be naughty, so you better be good" Then the 11,13, and 16 yo went on a brainstorm of examples of how God of the OT is mean. Here are some of their examples:
-he tells the Israelites to kill children -he chooses only ONE people to be his "chosen". What about the others? Why did God leave them out? Are they not worthwhile? -when Elisha was offended by the group of boys calling him "you bald head" he called down curses on them and bears came out and mauled them -the law says if your child is disrespectful (curses the parent) that he/she be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death
The 16 yo did a little pantomime where the son was the telling the dad he is far too hard on them zapping them and killing them for this and that, come on dad send me down there and lets put an end to this MEAN stuff.
Jesus of the NT is merciful and compassionate, a lot different feel than one gets from the OT. The 16 yo just got done reading Judges. She said she thinks lots of stuff shouldn't even be there in the OT because it makes God sound monstrous, worse than the ones who did the Holocaust. I told her that that some of the horrible stuff in Judges is not God's doing at all but mankind operating out of his flesh to do vile and evil acts. We can't attribute that stuff to God. She said, "but what about the stuff GOD TOLD them to do?" She said she has raised this question with several friends and apparently it turns out everyone else she has talked to has similar questions about God's "meanness".
I have to admit, I was rather stumped as to how to answer besides my own experience. I KNOW God and I KNOW HE is not mean but it took a very long journey and a lot of very personal lessons for me to REALLY understand that way deep down inside. And we prayed and asked HIM. I told them that when I ask GOD questions like that HE does clear things up for me and help me to understand better. I did tell them that Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" so Jesus' character, compassion, mercy is not different than the Father's. I also said that a lot of OT is meant to teach them and prepare them that they NEED a Savior.
Any ideas about why the OT "mean stuff"?
Dale Fincher
· 11 months ago
These are all great questions (and I can't move this to the 'calling all questions' section because I don't know how! LOL).
A lot of this has been covered in a lot of books. Paul Copan's new book, "When God Goes to Starbucks" covers some of this in ways easier to understand. I'll give my take on some of this, particularly an overarching views on justice and Scripture.
We have found these questions are growing more popular. Some "Christians" would rather get rid of the Jewish history so they can sterilize Jesus. One thing we have to keep in mind is that Jesus is Jewish and he embraced the whole Jewish tradition. He validated "all the law and the prophets," which is shorthand for saying the whole OT and constantly refers to it. So Jesus comes with all this 'baggage.' You can't have one without the other. So our better question for us, instead of jumping to judgmental conclusions, is, "What does Jesus get about the OT that I don't get?"
An epidemic I find today is that people ignore history. Even when they read literature, they fail to put that piece of literature in its historic context. Many read the Bible today as if it's a 21st century newspaper, not an ancient history book. So we've got to get into the shoes of those who first read it in order to understand it. Now that will take some extra work, sometimes hard work. But what is the alternative? Misinformation and confusion. That helps no one and creates a harder life anyway.
There are some parallels today with the OT. Everyone today believes in justice at some point. We believe child molesters should be imprisoned. We think it good they have to report themselves anywhere they choose to live. A later civilization may rise up and ask why we were so cruel to child molesters, why we prosecuted them, why we bothered them. They may call us "mean" for doing so. And we have to wonder how that future society has lost its moral bearings.
We can come up with countless reasons why some bad people--racists, molesters, nazis, serial killers, terrorists--need to be prosecuted, fined, or imprisoned.
So before we call our society mean or God mean, we have to get back to see the larger picture of what God is doing.
What kind of evil does a society have to do before God is "allowed" (on our terms) to wipe them out? That's my question for the students. How many stolen cars does it take in our culture for a car-thief to be arrested? How bad does it have to get in ancient culture for God to arrest a whole society in the way He deems appropriate?
Some say those people should only be punished, not killed. But I wonder at their assumption. Why punish at all? Who decides what is the appropriate amount of sentencing? We should keep in mind that death in the ancient world was common and expected. It's not as fearful a thing as we've made it into today. Many carry the assumption that today when someone dies they have no life afterwards. Not so in the Bible's view of things. Judgment, like redemption, is a washing.
Another thing to keep in mind for the students is an often overlooked tool in reading the Bible. When the Bible uses narrative, it is DESCRIBING, not PRESCRIBING what happened. You pointed this out in your post and I appreciate it. We have to keep educating people that narrative and history is a record of events, not a sanctioning of events. John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln. If we read just the story, we get a description. It's only afterwards that we apply moral principles to it. We would never tell a historian that he sanctioned Lincoln's death simply because he recorded it.
And this doesn't take into account the nations God did NOT wipe out. God had Israel go AROUND one group of people because the time of their iniquity was not yet complete. It was as if God was giving them time to be what they were supposed to be, an opportunity for them to turn away from corruption and self-destruction.
So if we call him mean, we have to also call him merciful.
And then you have God reaching Nineveh through Jonah. And the pronouncements of judgment and renewal against some pagan cities, like Tyre, as if these pagan nations knew who God was already and chose to lift their middle finger at him.
God has his eye on things and we cannot leave out of the picture how involved God may have been in their lives to some degree. The Bible assumes that many of these nations knew about their judgment, they knew they were rising up against the people of God and not joining them.
As for the Jews being chosen, that doesn't mean that everyone else was excluded. The Jews were chosen to show God to the world, all nations were invited to be part of it. This is why Jesus came, to continue the redemption of the world through the Jewish people. A long standing misunderstanding in the church is that the gentiles as the new vehicle of revelation. But this isn't so. The gentiles are grafted into the Jews. The Jews are still the chosen nation.
Perhaps we are also chosen in smaller ways to reach the neighbors around us. With great power comes great responsibility, says Spiderman. In the same way, when we know the love of God we get the opportunity to share the love of God. The Jews are not much different in the analogy. Yet should our neighbors complain that they didn't get to hear the good news first? Or should we all be thankful that we get to hear the good news at all? It says a lot about our own hearts when we're asking if we are worthwhile for God to come near and why God chose someone else as his nation of revelation. Who do we think we are? We would be missing the whole point!
Chesterton said a good remark: instead of complaining there are not ten ways into heaven, we should be thankful there is at least one.
This ties into Jesus well when he throws over the money-changers in the temple as a demonstration of judgment (just like the OT). He said the Jews were hiding in the temple rather than making it a place of prayer for ALL THE NATIONS. God wanted all involved, the Jews excluded them, and so judgment came. The Jews weren't doing their job, but they were judged, not replaced.
We know the Jews were not just using God's name to sanction blood-letting in the Scripture. Because many times when God tells them to wipe out a nation, they often failed at it and harbored some treasures and people for themselves. If they were using God as an excuse, they wouldn't always look so disobedient to their own foolish reputation.
Lots of good questions.... but here are a few ideas. Sorry it took me so long to reply.
+-----Original Message----- +From: Disqus [mailto:] +Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:03 PM +To: kidmugg@gmail.com +Subject: [dalefincher] Re: What exactly is this "Living with Questions"? + +NOTE: This message is waiting for your approval. You may respond with +"Delete" to delete this message or "Approve" to approve this message. +You may also respond with your response to automatically approve the +post and post your response at the same time. +
Tasha
· 1 year ago
If I only get one Christmas present, I want it to be this book.
Dale Fincher
· 1 year ago
By all means, put it on your list!!
sistersharonblcl
· 2 months ago
Morning all living with question is to me is like going through your whole life with things that's your never know, if not ask and things that are unanswer and to me you have some people that no the answer see your struggle with asking and they will never tell you so ask anyways even if it sounds stupid cause you will surley get an answer it is so hard to live this life with out question cause we all have so many question to ask.We will never know everything there is to know about of father but we can sure press our way and learn of him that one of the reason we have to question so that we may try to fine all of the true about him. In god grace amen.
thiteral
· 2 months ago
Very true, we are in a relationship with God, surely he would not begrudge our questions.
Dale Fincher
· 2 months ago
Certainly! And I know a good book on that subject! ;)
thiteral
· 2 months ago
I went to a Presbytery meeting last night, and part of the discussion was having to close a church that had been doing God's Will for over 200 years in the Suburb of Cleveland, OH. Very sad. Not only for the church but for the whole community, that has fallen on hard times, and recieved much sustainance from the church.
Those in control cannot see the cause of why churches with this kind of history fail, or they just refuse to acknowledge the causes. Minister's are concerned and point this out to the governing body, but they just smile grimely and nod.
Right after we agreed to close the church, the director of finance told us they we're raising our per Capitol .68 cents this year....I just sat there and shook my head.
On the bright side, a young lady we commissioned for ministry is studying Greek, the old Testament, and was interested in going back to the ways of the first church. She was accepted Unanimously by the elders and ministers of the church with loud applause...so not all church subjects think as their governing bodies do!
Dale Fincher
· 2 months ago
Interesting story about why churches fail... and I sometimes wonder if many leaders are asking why THEIR churches fail or why their denominations churches fail. I think the machine has grown so large we assume it's too big to fail or that it should continue to live...
That's exciting to hear about the believers applauding the young lady... that's power and commission!
All Comments
-he tells the Israelites to kill children
-he chooses only ONE people to be his "chosen". What about the others? Why did God leave them out? Are they not worthwhile?
-when Elisha was offended by the group of boys calling him "you bald head" he called down curses on them and bears came out and mauled them
-the law says if your child is disrespectful (curses the parent) that he/she be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death
The 16 yo did a little pantomime where the son was the telling the dad he is far too hard on them zapping them and killing them for this and that, come on dad send me down there and lets put an end to this MEAN stuff.
Jesus of the NT is merciful and compassionate, a lot different feel than one gets from the OT. The 16 yo just got done reading Judges. She said she thinks lots of stuff shouldn't even be there in the OT because it makes God sound monstrous, worse than the ones who did the Holocaust. I told her that that some of the horrible stuff in Judges is not God's doing at all but mankind operating out of his flesh to do vile and evil acts. We can't attribute that stuff to God. She said, "but what about the stuff GOD TOLD them to do?" She said she has raised this question with several friends and apparently it turns out everyone else she has talked to has similar questions about God's "meanness".
I have to admit, I was rather stumped as to how to answer besides my own experience. I KNOW God and I KNOW HE is not mean but it took a very long journey and a lot of very personal lessons for me to REALLY understand that way deep down inside. And we prayed and asked HIM. I told them that when I ask GOD questions like that HE does clear things up for me and help me to understand better. I did tell them that Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" so Jesus' character, compassion, mercy is not different than the Father's. I also said that a lot of OT is meant to teach them and prepare them that they NEED a Savior.
Any ideas about why the OT "mean stuff"?
A lot of this has been covered in a lot of books. Paul Copan's new book, "When God Goes to Starbucks" covers some of this in ways easier to understand. I'll give my take on some of this, particularly an overarching views on justice and Scripture.
We have found these questions are growing more popular. Some "Christians" would rather get rid of the Jewish history so they can sterilize Jesus. One thing we have to keep in mind is that Jesus is Jewish and he embraced the whole Jewish tradition. He validated "all the law and the prophets," which is shorthand for saying the whole OT and constantly refers to it. So Jesus comes with all this 'baggage.' You can't have one without the other. So our better question for us, instead of jumping to judgmental conclusions, is, "What does Jesus get about the OT that I don't get?"
An epidemic I find today is that people ignore history. Even when they read literature, they fail to put that piece of literature in its historic context. Many read the Bible today as if it's a 21st century newspaper, not an ancient history book. So we've got to get into the shoes of those who first read it in order to understand it. Now that will take some extra work, sometimes hard work. But what is the alternative? Misinformation and confusion. That helps no one and creates a harder life anyway.
There are some parallels today with the OT. Everyone today believes in justice at some point. We believe child molesters should be imprisoned. We think it good they have to report themselves anywhere they choose to live. A later civilization may rise up and ask why we were so cruel to child molesters, why we prosecuted them, why we bothered them. They may call us "mean" for doing so. And we have to wonder how that future society has lost its moral bearings.
We can come up with countless reasons why some bad people--racists, molesters, nazis, serial killers, terrorists--need to be prosecuted, fined, or imprisoned.
So before we call our society mean or God mean, we have to get back to see the larger picture of what God is doing.
What kind of evil does a society have to do before God is "allowed" (on our terms) to wipe them out? That's my question for the students. How many stolen cars does it take in our culture for a car-thief to be arrested? How bad does it have to get in ancient culture for God to arrest a whole society in the way He deems appropriate?
Some say those people should only be punished, not killed. But I wonder at their assumption. Why punish at all? Who decides what is the appropriate amount of sentencing? We should keep in mind that death in the ancient world was common and expected. It's not as fearful a thing as we've made it into today. Many carry the assumption that today when someone dies they have no life afterwards. Not so in the Bible's view of things. Judgment, like redemption, is a washing.
Another thing to keep in mind for the students is an often overlooked tool in reading the Bible. When the Bible uses narrative, it is DESCRIBING, not PRESCRIBING what happened. You pointed this out in your post and I appreciate it. We have to keep educating people that narrative and history is a record of events, not a sanctioning of events. John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln. If we read just the story, we get a description. It's only afterwards that we apply moral principles to it. We would never tell a historian that he sanctioned Lincoln's death simply because he recorded it.
And this doesn't take into account the nations God did NOT wipe out. God had Israel go AROUND one group of people because the time of their iniquity was not yet complete. It was as if God was giving them time to be what they were supposed to be, an opportunity for them to turn away from corruption and self-destruction.
So if we call him mean, we have to also call him merciful.
And then you have God reaching Nineveh through Jonah. And the pronouncements of judgment and renewal against some pagan cities, like Tyre, as if these pagan nations knew who God was already and chose to lift their middle finger at him.
God has his eye on things and we cannot leave out of the picture how involved God may have been in their lives to some degree. The Bible assumes that many of these nations knew about their judgment, they knew they were rising up against the people of God and not joining them.
As for the Jews being chosen, that doesn't mean that everyone else was excluded. The Jews were chosen to show God to the world, all nations were invited to be part of it. This is why Jesus came, to continue the redemption of the world through the Jewish people. A long standing misunderstanding in the church is that the gentiles as the new vehicle of revelation. But this isn't so. The gentiles are grafted into the Jews. The Jews are still the chosen nation.
Perhaps we are also chosen in smaller ways to reach the neighbors around us. With great power comes great responsibility, says Spiderman. In the same way, when we know the love of God we get the opportunity to share the love of God. The Jews are not much different in the analogy. Yet should our neighbors complain that they didn't get to hear the good news first? Or should we all be thankful that we get to hear the good news at all? It says a lot about our own hearts when we're asking if we are worthwhile for God to come near and why God chose someone else as his nation of revelation. Who do we think we are? We would be missing the whole point!
Chesterton said a good remark: instead of complaining there are not ten ways into heaven, we should be thankful there is at least one.
This ties into Jesus well when he throws over the money-changers in the temple as a demonstration of judgment (just like the OT). He said the Jews were hiding in the temple rather than making it a place of prayer for ALL THE NATIONS. God wanted all involved, the Jews excluded them, and so judgment came. The Jews weren't doing their job, but they were judged, not replaced.
We know the Jews were not just using God's name to sanction blood-letting in the Scripture. Because many times when God tells them to wipe out a nation, they often failed at it and harbored some treasures and people for themselves. If they were using God as an excuse, they wouldn't always look so disobedient to their own foolish reputation.
Lots of good questions.... but here are a few ideas. Sorry it took me so long to reply.
+-----Original Message-----
+From: Disqus [mailto:]
+Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 4:03 PM
+To: kidmugg@gmail.com
+Subject: [dalefincher] Re: What exactly is this "Living with Questions"?
+
+NOTE: This message is waiting for your approval. You may respond with
+"Delete" to delete this message or "Approve" to approve this message.
+You may also respond with your response to automatically approve the
+post and post your response at the same time.
+
Those in control cannot see the cause of why churches with this kind of history fail, or they just refuse to acknowledge the causes. Minister's are concerned and point this out to the governing body, but they just smile grimely and nod.
Right after we agreed to close the church, the director of finance told us they we're raising our per Capitol .68 cents this year....I just sat there and shook my head.
On the bright side, a young lady we commissioned for ministry is studying Greek, the old Testament, and was interested in going back to the ways of the first church. She was accepted Unanimously by the elders and ministers of the church with loud applause...so not all church subjects think as their governing bodies do!
That's exciting to hear about the believers applauding the young lady... that's power and commission!