Dale Fincher - Latest Comments in What Exactly is "Church"?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Jason Seagle — Fri, 01 Jan 2016 16:24:03 -0000

our church seems to be on life support.... It seems very difficult trying to figure out whats going on. Why we are diminishing in numbers and why we can not keep our visitors. I have read Charles Shwartz "Natural Church Development" and this is where we are trying to take our church. But it seems with a congregation that averages 50 members with only around 20 "devoted", our task appears daunting at best. We have a body trying to run a marathon that seems to be legless. Any suggestions?

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sylvialazo — Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:16:01 -0000

The things I notice about the last church we were attending are:
You are"loved on" if you are in a particular "ministry". When you step down or stop, no matter what your reason, you are no longer spoken to. I thought it was my imagination for several months...began to hear the same thing from other ppl..
I also notice that as long as you are a part of the "Worship" team, or a part of the "Youth-ages 7th grade thru 30yrs old....you are accepted, praised, used, spoken to and included in all their stuff....If you're older than that, UNLESS you are involved in the way they like you to be involved, you are once again, ignored. When I say ignored, I mean without exaggeration, the same ppl who once spoke to you and hugged and "loved on" you, now look the other way or look at you but say absolutely nothing to you when they see you. If you are a child, you are loved on as long as you come to their church, which is touted as THE movement that God is using to win their city, as tho no one else in that city is doing squat for God.
I noticed that unless you pray loud, shout and dance LIKE THEY DO, and "come up to the front " for worship, you are treated as not as good as those who do ....right down to the verbal correction or "admonition" from the pulpit to the general "those of you who don't"....
we two are tired of being chewed on , or as they put it, cut on.....We believe God is turning the hearts of the fathers and sons to each other, and we're happy about that. We DONT believe that that is ALL He is doing, nor do we believe that a father in order to be a true father, has to belong to THEIR particular movement, or act like they do. Nor do they need to always be correcting their 'sons'.
I notice te talk of the people is becoming more and more what their 'church movement' is doing, and less and less of what God is doing. I'm not sure they realize how they sound.
I have several of the ppl on my friends list, and they used to pop up to chat with me. Since we stepped back from the 'ministry' for very good reason (I had to work, for 1) none of them talk to me anymore at all. None of them answer when I text or msg them.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

meanlittleboy — Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:56:57 -0000

BING!! Exactly my opinions....If God doesn't come soon? There will be no church to come to rapture.. The new religion will be called followers of Christ without a church?? Its so sad but so true. People are starving for an answer? Cheers mlb...keep up the good work~!!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:48:54 -0000

Check your email!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:05:38 -0000

No problem :0)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:45:02 -0000

Yes, I am... my goodness, I read through your very meaty emails right when you sent them and they have completely slipped through the cracks... I'll look back over them this week and give you a reply. Sorry about that!

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Tue, 05 Jan 2010 03:26:29 -0000

Hi Dale,

You back yet?

Regards,

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:18:28 -0000

For those of you desiring to follow the discussion into deeper waters and hopefully more meaningful terrain on the "church" crisis, I spell out some ideas in part 3 that are worth your consideration... good discussion on that post as well.

"Church"? ...A Way Forward!
http://dalefincher.blogspot...

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

kalyandas — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 00:52:57 -0000

Reading through this dialogue on an extremely important subject, I wonder if the Church lost its way in becoming a gathering of individuals, instead of being a place where individuals gather?

As a gathering of individuals, our primary concern with Church is "what do I get out of it". This might explain why people feel disconnected, socially (when they attend and no one greets them), emotionally (when people suffer alone in silence as others are too busy with their own lives and no one RELALY wants a genuine and sincere answer to "How are you?") and theologically (the "feel-good" messages someone mentioned in these posts, which do not address the real needs of members/attendees).

Instead, if we were a place where individuals gather, we come as we are and BECOME a community, one that has the burden of responsibility to minister and reach out to each other.

The difference is between being "independent" and "interdependent"

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 01:06:07 -0000

Luison, thanks for posting and letting us know this isn't just a problem in the United States. I wonder if God is fragmenting many churches so we'd rethink his story...

Persecution does make people serious, but it also snuffs out churches. History has shown this. I'd like us to work at being dependent on the Messiah while we are still free to do so. The church flourishes best with freedom... and it gives the nonchalant more opportunity to become spiritual responsible.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Luison — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 02:02:41 -0000

this problem is in my church too,my church, the Primera Iglesia Bautista de Guadalajara, Mex. Have the problems mention then in this post. We loose the youngest, and the older ons too, the church is cold, nobody wanted to speak about Jesus,we are loosing money too, cause a lot of members had losed their jobs.The leaders are involved in internal fights,the pastor leadership is weak,40 years ago we had 45 missions,now we only
have 6.Probably we need again persecution,liberties
cut,so we can depend in the Lord,a few members assist
to pray services, this is te trues and reality in our church.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

shajikannan — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:13:32 -0000

Praise God dear sister,

God is good. He will never let us down. In times of trouble he will guide
us.
Like to know more about you.

God bless
Shaji

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:28:51 -0000

I didn't see implied abandonment... the original post offered many different ideas to talk about and so the readers are offering their points of view.

Some readers are offering some great Scripture.

Remaking church into our image is indeed a problem. And yet I think that's what has happened for the last 1700 years... The Catholics use Acts 15 as the first example of an ecumenical council and so justified the many, many, many others they did to give us official church doctrine (universal church, not just local). I happen to think that's not what the chapter is for either, though councils are helpful.

Even the Scripture, though a standard, can be easily abused. Which is why our shared experiences as God's people are so important to check, not the Scripture, but our interpretation of it.

Check out some of the other posts and you'll see a lot of ideas based on Scriptural assumptions. I think some helpful ideas are brewing. I don't believe, at the end of the day, we have to get rid of what we're doing. I think we have to RE-THINK our identity and how to classify what we're doing. I believe we'd have fewer casualties today and be more kingdom minded as the trajectory of God's people.

I'm glad you've taken the time to discuss on here.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:14:56 -0000

I appreciate your spelling out that the different words most likely refer to the same "office."

Yet, too many conservative, Biblical scholars disagree these days that a "church" is the assembly as institutionalized under a "pastor." I don't think this has changed because of modern times. I think it was actually an earlier era that re-framed how we are supposed to think about church and made the standard a congregation under one pastor.

By the way, though "ekklesia" literally means "called-out ones," it has no spiritual significance. It is a generic word. In the ancient world, pagans also met as ekklesias because it simply met assemblies or people. And for the Jewish mind, it means something even more... it referred to all the Chosen People and those grafted into her....

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:57:25 -0000

(thanks for refreshing the thread into the larger format! :))

I think that we are very likely going for the same goal. No doubt. And we want similar things.

Yet I think the larger thing to consider is not HOW church is done (though that is very important) but what church IS. If "church" is a people, then how did the "institution" replace it as an identity? If you asked 100 people on the street, 99 would tell you the "church" is that organization on the corner. And the next corner and the next. And everyone on those corners would be under different leadership, etc. If you asked the average church person who was the head of the church, they would likely say the pastor or the elders. They would not likely say "the Messiah is the Head of the Church" as Paul told us. Our identity, both biblically and psychologically, has been institutionalized. We don't think of ourselves as the House of Israel, as Paul did. We don't immediately think of our God as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is my name forever," the way Jesus and Paul and the rest of the Jewish nation did.

This touches on "how" we do church in that few people have a concern for the Jews nor understand that the fate of the world is bound up with them. Both the Catholic Church and the Reformers are at fault for this, assuming the Jews time was over. Yet the place of the Jews and their theology is all over Scripture from beginning to end. It is so large, it is good evidence just how easily our cultural lenses will influence us. We fragment the story by slipping in some strange view of "church" that has become a gentile affair, adrift from Old Testament teaching, adrift from the Jews, adrift from the Jewish assumptions Jesus taught.

So when people decide to leave the "church" as an institution, they are looked down upon, etc. In reality, they may not have left anything but the local "community center" that some Christians built and put unbibical guilt upon them for not attending and being under THAT leadership in THAT way.

I'm sure you can see where this is going... and if I'm right, the "church" as we know it has some explainin' to do.

I appreciate you, as an elder visiting this blog, how kind and generous and humble you are in all your posts. I always appreciate people willing to consider another point of view, especially those in leadership. As an itinerant speaker, I find that a rare quality among leaders. So the Spirit is alive in you, and even though the computer screen, it is visible.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:44:11 -0000

I liked it. And I'm glad you've taken the time to be here on this blog. I got your email and will jot a note soon. I'm on the road at the moment with Soulation...

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:40:08 -0000

I agree with you... and I also think that when they gathered on Sunday, it was a work day. So they met at morning or at night to celebrate the resurrection together.

And they likely gathered at the synagogue the day before, on the Sabbath, which they practiced.

Yes, we can gather anywhere we like it seems in the Scripture. I just get concerned when the gathering becomes a passive affair for most believers, sitting and listening under a strict hierarchy without active engagement....

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:36:00 -0000

I will only add this comment: if God deliberately chooses evil agency in our lives, then he is not good. He may allow evil, but he does not cause it, not Paul's or anyone elses. He causes Judgement, but not evil. The example of Paul's thorn in the flesh was not an evil spirit sent to keep him humble. Far from it.

When we suffer evil at the hands of others we have a good God to go to who did not cause the evil. And when we see evil, God tells us we can call it evil. When anyone is abused by another, whether it be by a pastor or anyone else, it is evil. Period. I'm unsure it would be a promotion. It's just evil happening to you and you get to be identified with Jesus who had evil happen to him. We call the people evil. We don't call God evil for God did not cause the evil.

It would serve us well that when we find someone suffering that we do not say God is teaching us a lesson nor that God is bragging on us nor that we are getting a promotion. Theologically speaking those are quite far from the God of the Scripture, though it has been preached and taught for a long time.

We want to love the hurting and help them healing with a God who is good and with us all the way.

Oh, and we can call upon God even when we do not have pain in our hearts. While pain does sometimes drive us to him; sometimes pleasure does too. Pain is not necessary to be holy. Again, often preached, but it's not a Scriptural principle. ;)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

Dale Fincher — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:24:08 -0000

Absolutely! All of it very well said.

My understanding as well is that "church" in the New Testament is a borrowed concept from the Old Testament for the "House of Israel." So when we think of "church" we MUST think of people as connected to Jewish people (Rom 9-11). We may create an institution and congregations and non-profits and hospitals and unversities, etc, but those aren't the church. They are, on my view, "community centers." What happens is that we require the people grafted into the House of Israel to consider "church" as the building on the corner, complete with staff. We relegate the "offices" of the church to board members and paid "ministers" and "full time Christian work." And we frown on people who do not attend these community centers as fragmented and backsliding and out of fellowship. In reality, they may be re-learning through the Spirit the older Jewish view (and the whole New Testament is Jewish) that the "church" is the people of God who are connected to the "Chosen" people, the Jews, and all of the Jewish promises.

I don't think people are ready for this identity shift. But it's coming. It's only a matter of time. I just hate to see all the disenfranchised Christians discouraged and wandering when in reality they've taken no steps away from God and his people, only away from the "community center" that's been the cultural norm for many centuries...

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

knoxbury — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:27:27 -0000

The lack of standard is present by default because no debate is being made (for the most part) based on any standard other than opinion as if God has nothing to say about church.

And the abandonment is implied . . . it doesn't have to be expressly stated.

As far as Acts 15, the Presbyterians base much of their church polity on this chapter. I don't happen to agree with them, but the point is that there are at least issues to debate from Scripture (a standard) as to how the church should look.

I'm not trying to go point by point. I just want to encourage readers to base their opinion of church on a standard instead of remaking church into our image.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

mama_in_africa — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:23:36 -0000

I will have to disagree and point this one thing out to you, that in N.T. teaching, "elder", "overseer", "bishop" and "pastor" all refer to ONE office in the church. Today we use the word pastor, others could use 'bishop', 'elder', etc., but they are simply different descriptions of the one office, the way that salvation can be described as 'justification', or 'redemption', (salvation), etc.--different terms, to describe different facets of the one idea of salvation.

I'm not disputing the fact that mankind has 'programmed' the local church of the 21st centrury so much that it doesn't resemble what the N.T. describes the local church as in the pastoral epistles, and Acts. But that doesn't give us the right to re-interpret the Scripture as to what the local church is, which is a localized, called-out body of believers, assembled together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, with the pastor as the leader, the deacon in the 'servan'ts' office with a congregational govt. (pastor-leader, congregation-governing)

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sistersharonblcl — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:47:04 -0000

Hello shajakannan i sent you a email and i thank god that you are following me now so that we can share god word together and vent on different suject look forward to hearing from you in god grace amen.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

edgarbland — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:52:54 -0000

then only God knows why.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

thiteral — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:35:39 -0000

I'm posting this as a new thread only because the window was getting too small on the responses. Thanks for the insight Dale and Sharna, I don't think our views are that different, just on how we achieve them. You write that 'home churching' or groups can grow into larger things, where as I have church that has evolved small groups within the church that do 'home churching'. We meet weekly, and can use a book, a thought, or even a even a program like the ones Dale and Jonalyn put together to start the thought process, and openly and honestly and respectfully debate what Jesus wants in whatever context we happen to be discussing. Many times views differ due to social/economical/spiritual backgrounds. We've had some heated discussions, but when done in love, everyone comes away feeling that God has pressed upon us the importance of all opinions on the subject, and it gives us new ways to show our undersanding and love to people outside our way of thought (does that make sense?).

It is really interesting that we both can go at the same goal, but with different views on how it should be achieved.

Re: What Exactly is "Church"?

sharne — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:56:46 -0000

Sorry for the "rant" :-)